| “A Disconnect Between Rhetoric and Reality, Between What Government Says it's Doing and What It's Actually Delivering" |
Culture in the Senedd |
| Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee , Senedd , December 18, 2025 |
The Committee took evidence from the Minister on 19th November. Delyth Jewell: The Government has become the first nation in the world, I think, to be a Marmot nation and led by those principles. Could you, again, point us to any examples of where that decision has led to specific choices in terms of preventative spending, please? Jack Sargeant: So, I think the journey of becoming a Marmot nation, and then, indeed, afterwards, continues. Our budget is particularly focused on prevention as well. The sport and arts portfolio, if not all of the spend, goes to preventing ill health in some way, because that's what access to sport and culture does. Alun Davies: I think this is where—. I've listened to Ministers say, and I probably have myself at different times said, very similar things over the years. I'm old enough to remember Sir Jeremy Beecham's 'Making the Connections'. I remember citizen-centred services and the rest of it. I remember all of these different strategies and strategic approaches from Welsh Government, and I can't really easily remember the difference they've made. And when I look at what the Marmot nation and what the Marmot principles mean—. 'Give every child the best start in life'—well, wasn't the Welsh Government doing that anyway? 'Tackle racism, discrimination and their outcomes'—I seem to remember Welsh Government doing that before I was elected, and I've been here 18 years. 'Ensure a healthy standard of living for all', 'create fair employment'. You know, what does this mean? Does it mean anything? And if it does, what decisions are going to be different as a consequence of this that you wouldn't have taken anyway? To me, none of this stuff is very new or different, but it's the sort of thing that Gareth could easily say. It isn't exactly defining what a Labour Government is doing. I'm interested in understanding how adopting all these principles, which I thought we'd adopted long before I was elected, frankly, is going to change Government decisions. How is that going to change what the Government is going to do? It wouldn't have done this had we not taken this decision. What is the difference it's driving? That's what I'm really interested in. Jack Sargeant: Well, I think becoming a Marmot nation only furthers the case for more spend in preventative health, and we've got to balance the real pressures on the health service that they face now with the spend on preventive health as well. But, as I say, I'm happy to provide more information, particularly from the health Secretary, to the committee on that. Heledd Fychan: I was wondering if the figures exist. So, if we're able to get them, that would be great. Thank you. The future generations commissioner, with us, was saying that there's little evidence that cultural well-being is being supported holistically across policy areas, so it's for our scrutiny work to really understand how that's measured. Alun Davies: You referred to this, Minister, on a number of occasions in your evidence. So, I think it's important that we understand what the committee is asking for, and that is that, as a Minister, you will provide to this committee, in writing, the spend from other portfolios and other Ministers on the arts, culture and sport, broken down, and then I presume that we will be able to look back and forward in terms of looking at a total spend from the Welsh Government on these sector portfolios, so that we're agreed on what the committee's looking for and what you will provide. Jack Sargeant: So, I will provide a figure, Chair, of investment from other portfolios where they have invested in programmes or activities that have contributed to the culture and arts sector. Alun Davies: And that will be both revenue and capital, yes? Jack Sargeant: I'll provide a figure, yes. Alun Davies: For revenue and capital. Jack Sargeant: I agree entirely with that. We have regular discussions with our arm's-length bodies in particular. I have my biannual scrutiny sessions with them, but we have more discussions outside of that, and officials have very regular discussions with them. For cases like the amgueddfa, we asked them to prepare their operational plans, as all arm's-length bodies do, but also their plan—I can't quite remember the exact name of the plan—their vision of programmes across a period, and we work with them to support them with that. So, we do monitor and work with them to see their state and their need for investment, and that's how we've made investments in the past, and that's how we'll go on to make investments I think what's important for the priorities for culture is that, just six months ago, we launched the priorities for culture with that package of funding across, and the majority of that money has gone out the door, which I think is important to the sector, and I think that's something we should recognise as well. I think that's the importance of allowing the arts council to make those decisions. We gave the £8 million fund to the arts council, and they are the experts in this field. They have the relationship with the sector and I think it's important for them to do that piece of work, at the arm's-length principle, with the experts there. And we will work with the arts council, as we work with all arm's-length bodies, to look at that. Alun Davies: I'm trying to work this out as well, Minister. It's a restated budget, yes, which is what we've agreed, and as you've outlined. But the baseline for the arts council is £33. million, and that's been increased to £33. million, which is an increase of 0. per cent. That's not a standstill budget; that's a real-terms cut Jack Sargeant: So, I think it's a targeted intervention into— Alun Davies: It's not an intervention at all, it's a cut. Jack Sargeant : No, it's a targeted uplift into pay, and then that modest increase to the line that they've seen in revenue. So, it's an increase, with a targeted intervention. Alun Davies: It's a cut. We went through this a decade ago in austerity. A 0.2 per cent increase, when inflation is projected when this comes into reality next April to be 3 per cent, is a cut, and with inflation today at 3 per cent, it's a cut. And I don't understand how anybody can argue that it is an increase. It's a real-terms cut. Jack Sargeant : Well, Chair, again, I think we're repeating the same thing. Alun Davies: No, we're not. I'm asking a different question. I haven't asked this question before. Jack Sargeant: The answer is, what I said earlier, that this is a start of a process, isn't it? This is what the draft budget has laid out—the restated budget as the finance Secretary has laid out. We've made a targeted uplift, particularly on pay. Yes, there is a modest revenue—. I appreciate the Member's take on this, but this is a start of a process, not the end of the process. Alun Davies: But the start of the process was the standstill budget, which we will all have different views on, but let's just accept the fact of a standstill budget for the basis of our conversation this morning. The start of that, and this is where the process starts, Minister, is 0.2 per cent. That's what we were told by Mark Drakeford; I was in the Chamber for it. That's not 2 per cent, that's 0.2 per cent. Jack Sargeant: Yes, and there's been a targeted uplift in pay in particular, and then that increase, as the Member has described, in revenue allocation. Alun Davies: Well, it's a cut. It's a cut. And I know you can argue otherwise; we've been through this before at different times. So, we're cutting the arts council. We're not standing still; we're cutting the arts council, and that's going to have an impact right across the sector. Jack Sargeant: The leadership team, and officials have regular conversations with our arm's-length bodies and partners there. They're always constructive conversations and I think I'd welcome that relationship going forward. We, of course, have ongoing conversations. We will continue those conversations as the budget process continues. Alun Davies: Yes. We've debated and discussed various issues around the budget and its impact on your portfolio, but I'm left with the impression that there's a real disconnect in Government—a disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality, a disconnect between what the Government says it's doing and what it's actually delivering. I understand, and I've heard it a number of times, about the debate about Marmot now, but it could have been making the connections, it could have been future generations, it could have been all sorts of different things in the past, and that was going to drive Government in a particular direction; it's a matter for the electorate to determine whether that's happened or not. But wherever money is spent is the most political decision that the Government takes every year. It's where it says its priorities are. And it's clear to me, when you take away the rhetoric and when you take away a lot of what is said, that the arts, culture and sport are simply not a priority for the Government. And it's not just this Government, but successive Welsh Governments over a number of years, because of the numbers we've got. So, we've got a Government that claims and says it's doing all sorts of different things, in the way that we've heard described, and then we look at the budget and the budget doesn't tell the same story. And that is where I am at the moment. I'm thinking—. I'm listening to what's being said, I'm listening to this stuff about preventative spend, that there's bits coming here and bits coming there and the rest of it, but that's not the story that the budget tells, is it? The story the budget tells is of continuing real-terms decline in investment in this portfolio. Abridged, with thanks and acknowledgement, from the transcript which can be read in full at: https://record.senedd.wales/Committee/15415 |
Reviewed by: Adam Somerset |
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